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Tech companies are very good at serving up personalized content based on what they know about you. But they're not very good at picking up on big, sudden changes in your life. For example, Google Photos can show you pictures of a loved one taken three years ago, and Pinterest can suggest wedding-themed photos when your special day is right around the corner. But what if that loved one is no longer in the picture? And what if that wedding's been canceled? Those algorithms that resurface memories aren’t very good at telling which of those previously happy memories might now be upsetting.
This week on Gadget Lab, WIRED senior writer Arielle Pardes joins us to talk about how the internet has changed the ways we love and remember. We also talk about the state of dating apps and how technology has given us new ways to connect with potential loves, especially during the pandemic.
Read Lauren’s story about how the internet doesn’t let you forget past relationships here. Read Arielle’s profile of Shar Dubey, the boss of all dating apps here. Read Will Knight’s conversation with Kazuo Ishiguro here.
Arielle recommends looking up your horoscope on AstrologyZone.com. Lauren recommends the book Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro. Mike recommends E. Jean Carroll’s Substack.
Arielle Pardes can be found on Twitter @pardesoteric. Lauren Goode is @LaurenGoode. Michael Calore is @snackfight. Bling the main hotline at @GadgetLab. The show is produced by Boone Ashworth (@booneashworth). Our theme music is by Solar Keys.
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Michael Calore: Lauren.
Lauren Goode: Mike.
MC: Lauren, what is your dating app of choice?
LG: Wow, we're going there? I mean, I probably have to say Clubhouse because where else would I go to get info about crypto and NFTs and thought leadership and have a lullaby sang to me every night?
MC: Well, you can't see this because you're listening to it, but I'm flashing my microphone on and off very quickly right now.
LG: PTR!
[Gadget Lab intro theme music]
MC: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Gadget Lab. I'm Michael Calore a senior editor at WIRED.
LG: And I'm Lauren Goode, I'm a senior writer at WIRED.
MC: We are also joined this week by WIRED senior writer and our former cohost Arielle Pardes.
Arielle Pardes: Hi, you guys.
LG: Yay, Arielle's back.
MC: So today we are talking about online dating and how tech has changed, how people build and end relationships. Later on in the show, we're going to talk about dating apps and how people have used them during the pandemic. But first, Lauren, this week you wrote a very personal story about a breakup and how sites like Pinterest and Google Photos would not let you forget it. Please tell us about the experience you had.
LG: How much time do you have?
MC: About an hour.
LG: Sorry. OK. All right. So as I wrote on WIRED.com, I was in a relationship for a very long time, about eight years, and we were engaged. And in May of 2019, we broke up. And I not only called off the relationship, but in the process of doing that canceled the wedding that we had almost fully planned at that point, because we got engaged and were determined to get married pretty quickly so we went into rapid planning mode. That in itself was its own kind of traumatic experience. I'm sure a lot of people have had similar experiences, whether the dissolution of a longterm partnership or a divorce. And I think that that will always involve some kind of grieving process for folks, which I like to say may or may not be a linear path because grief has a funny way of sneaking up on you.
But what I started to experience was that, because of the digital footprint that I left in my life, particularly over the past decade as I've been writing about the technology industry and technology products. The digital footprint I left was so massive that I was getting constant reminders, and I still am, frankly, of this relationship. And not just the relationship, but the wedding, the aborted wedding that had never really happened. And at one point, actually this goes back to Arielle, it was shortly after the breakup and Arielle and another WIRED editor, Jason Kehe and I, went and grabbed some drinks after work. This is back when we were in offices and we were in our office in Soma.
And I started telling them a little bit about what had happened and everything was still fresh. And they said, "You should write about it." People listening to this are going, "Wow, what a bunch of journalists." Everything is copy, as Nora Ephron said famously. And I thought, "OK. Well, who wants to read about this?" And we teased out some ideas, but honestly it was just still too new at the time and I couldn't really get my head around it. So later in 2020, I revisited the idea. Of course, at this point we were in the midst of a pandemic and that came with it's own terrible grief and sadness and loss and stress. And I started trying to write about what had happened in 2019 through the context of our new world and all these photo memories and ads I was still seeing. And then that became the story that ran this week.
MC: And this is not a unique experience, right? A lot of other people have experienced this, where they lose somebody in their life and then their photo roll and their Facebook feed just still has all these photos. But you do have a unique experience because, like you said, you're a technology journalist, you test products as part of your job, so you have all of this stuff, you have smart displays around your house, you belong to almost every social network that has ever existed and you've uploaded data to all of those places. You have a much larger, I think … I would guess, digital footprint than most people.
LG: Yeah. And not only that, but our relationship was somewhat consumed by technology. My ex works in tech. I mean, he works in the cybersecurity field. So I was covering consumer primarily and his world was very different, but it's one of the things that we connected on right off the bat when we started dating in 2011. And one of the anecdotes I include in this story is he went along with me when I was testing a new wallet app. I was looking for a retail store that would accept this new app, so I could try it out and write about it. It was Square actually. I mean, it was like so early on. It's funny now to think back of the earliest days of Instagram, right? Like I have a photo with Kevin on my Instagram and it's one of the first photos because I was like simultaneously writing about these products and a user of them.
And so I do have this massive digital footprint and it has always been a little bit alarming to me, but it was really underscored by this experience. And partly what I was trying to unpack with this story is that there are at least two layers to this problem, right? Of what we leave behind it and what we're reminded of, which is that … There was this above board or surface level reminder that I would get constantly in consumer facing applications. And I'm referring to things like Google Photos, we're putting together a photo collage for you and reminding you of this day three years ago, or Facebook giving you on this day notifications or Apple Photos. Like, my ex, his face would sometimes pop up on my Apple watch on my wrist because Apple decided that was a good time to show me that photo memory.
And Timehop, I think, is one of the best examples of this. And that's really … You understand as it's happening, what is going on to an extent. But then also I tried to understand the complicated labyrinth of ad networks, which you don't really see how they work, right? You go to a website and you indicate that you're doing something, like getting married or planning a wedding or having a baby, and you're sending these signals through the Internet, to marketers and they're taking those signals and running with them and sending you more content like that. And you just have no idea how it's actually happening. And in that part I still, after months of researching and I still don't fully understand it, frankly, but in the Internet world, I'm still getting married basically.
AP: Yeah, Lauren, I think what's so difficult about this story is that as you are trying to move on and you're trying to extract yourself from these reminders, it's really impossible. I mean, forget the ads for a minute, it's not possible to tell Pinterest that you're no longer getting married. It's not possible to tell Google Photos that you'd really rather not see a reminder of your ex from three years ago on this day. And I think that's such an interesting problem that you've exposed in this story, that I think is so painful for so many different reasons. But you actually talked to many of the technologists who have failed to account for that.
And your story, you have this amazing quote from Omar Seyal who runs the core product at Pinterest, who acknowledges that this is a real problem. He calls it the miscarriage problem or the bias of the majority problem, which is that these products are built to surface memories because most people find that really lovely, failing to account for the fringe cases when it can be really, really painful. My question is, how are these companies starting to deal with that? Do you think there's an acknowledgement that these products are not one-size-fits-all and that for people like you, this could be quite painful?
LG: That's a good question. Because when I first met with Pinterest, it was back in October of 2019, at that point I had been single and the wedding planning was in the rear view mirror for probably about five months at that point. And Pinterest was aware of the problem. In fact, they said that this was one of their top five complaints that they had been getting from users. And so they had been spending the past several months trying to work on a solution for it. And the problem is what you described, right? That the majority of users on a site may have a positive experience, they're getting the transaction they want out of it, or they're being shown the photos that they actually find pleasing or joyful in some way. But there is that minority of users who are having a negative experience. And the problem is that the negative experience is really an out-sized negative experience.
It's really painful, or really terrible, or really dissatisfying in some way. And so they had been working on it, but what I saw that day was a dropdown menu from Pinterest that was like, look, you can tune your home feed and now you can unselect entire topics. Like you can unselect weddings or baby or nursery instead of going through and then selecting individual pins. And I wrote in the story that that to me was a very Facebookian solution, in the same way that Facebook every so often says, "We've revamped our privacy settings" and then they change their menu options. And then since then Pinterest has shared some data indicating that they are seeing a little bit more customer satisfaction and they think that they're improving it and that's all well and fine.
But I think with really, really personal experiences, most people don't want to just hear about whether you've improved the problem by 20 percent, they just want to know that their grief isn't being monetized in a terrible way and that they could possibly have a more uncluttered experience on these websites because it can be really traumatic to see some of this content resurface. Sorry, that's a really long answer to your question, Arielle. But I think when I spoke to the folks at Google, for example too, about Google Photos, and they talk about the algorithms and how the algorithms are never going to be perfect. They're trying to do things like account for if there's a car accident or an ambulance appearing in a photo, or if it appears to be a hospital photo, the algorithms won't resurface that in your feed.
But one of the questions I had was, "Well, what if the hospital photo's a happy photo? What if it means there's a baby that's been born?" And it's an uncomplicated photo and the algorithms, they don't know that much yet. It's not a very nuanced thing.
MC: That's a good example of them using computer vision, right? To block things from you. And there's also the tool that you're seeing more and more now in apps that collect photos, where they can use computer vision and facial recognition to allow you to identify people that you don't want to see anymore. So you can tap on somebody's face and say, never show me a photo with this person's face in it.
LG: You can. And that I did actually find to be fairly effective, particularly with Apple Photos, once I did that. I have Apple photo album of 16,000, more than 16,000 photos at this point, and a thousand videos. And I did go through and into my … I think it's called favorite people maybe, or something like that in the photo app, and I unselected my ex's face. And that did help a little bit, I think. I'm no longer seeing quite as much content in my iPad widget or on my Apple watch pop up with those photo reminders. But the really interesting thing about that is that you can't opt out of photo memories entirely in Apple Photos.
If you're using Apple Photos, that is one of the features you're just opted into, or like Google said, for example, you can not only untag faces, but you can indicate there's a time period from which you don't want to see memories. But as I know in the story, that's great, but what if the time period is eight years or longer? Are you just going to basically say, I don't want to see any of these photos. So there are some controls now to try to fine tune your experience, but they're really not great.
AP: It's also more complicated than just remembering or forgetting, right? You mentioned in your story that there are photos that remind you of your wedding, that still make you happy, like a photo of you trying on wedding dresses with your mom and you're embracing each other. And sure, the fact of a white dress reminds you of a painful experience, but it doesn't wholesale detract from the fact that you're hugging someone you love, who you haven't been able to see in a long time. And that's a photo that I'm sure you're happy when it surfaces. And I guess that gets at the complicated human nature of what we want to remember and what we want to forget, which can be hard to grapple within your own heart and mind, let alone in a software on your iPad.
LG: Right. And one thing that we've seen happen a lot this year is people sharing photos online or with friends, or even in our work groups of, "Hey, remember when before the pandemic we used to be all together in the office or at the bar? Or remember we took that fun vacation?" And for some people they … Like one woman wrote to me and said, it makes her heart ache during this time when it pops up in Google Photos. But for a lot of people, it's hope. It's like, "Hey, remember we did this fun thing. I think maybe we're going to be able to do that together again, someday." I need something to look forward to, and this is making me happy, or I really miss my friends. And I'm so glad this party was such a good time. I'm so glad that surfaced.
And so I don't think the memory features are entirely terrible, I just think that we should be able to opt in or out of them or have more controls over how they actually work.
MC: Amen. Well, Lauren, thank you for sharing your story with us and with the WIRED readers. We're going to take a break right now. And when we come back, we're going to talk about starting new relationships.
[Break]
MC: Welcome back. We have talked about breakups and how they can linger in our always connected world. But the same devices that auto regurgitate the painful memories can also be used to find new and hopefully less painful human connections. The usage of dating apps has skyrocketed during the pandemic, despite the need for social distancing. It turns out that a lot of people are feeling kind of lonely and they're looking to meet new people. Now, Arielle, you profiled Shar Dubey for WIRED. She's the CEO of the Match Group, which owns most of the big dating apps. Tell us about her journey.
AP: Shar Dubey is the most powerful tech CEO. You've probably never heard of. Most people don't know this, but Match Group owns Match.com, OkCupid, Tinder, Hinge, PlentyofFish, and about a dozen other dating apps around the world. They own dating apps in Egypt, they own dating apps in Japan, they own dating apps that are specifically for Latino users, specifically for Muslim users, specifically for Christian users. It's truly incredible the size of this empire.
LG: It sounds like they're polyapporous. Sorry.
AP: Yeah. Exactly. And Shar who has worked at the company for about 15 years, became the chief executive last March, just as the coronavirus pandemic threatened to upend dating as we knew it. So I became very fascinated with Shar as a person, with the challenge that she faced in stepping into the CEO role and also about what the future of dating looked like for this company that has just a completely outsized effect on what modern love looks like today.
LG: I want to hear more about Shar's journey, but how did Match just come to own this whole dating experience?
AP: Yeah, so Match.com is one of the oldest modern dating sites. And I say modern dating sites because there were dating sites that existed as far back as the 1960s. Pretty much as soon as computers are invented, people are trying to figure out ways to use them to find love, but Match.com was really the first dating app to utilize the Internet in a profound way. And this came about in 1995. And so from there, the company has grown just tremendously and acquired lots of other brands along the way. So of the major dating apps that Match Group now owns, some of them were homegrown. So Tinder for example, is a startup that came out of, actually like an internal incubator that the Match Group owns. Whereas other ones like Hinge and OkCupid were standalone apps that were then later acquired by the company. But along the way, it's become this mass entity of dating power.
And they do this really clever thing, which is that most people don't know all these apps are owned by the same company. And so they play off each other's weaknesses. So you may notice that Hinge markets itself as an app for people who are tired of swiping on Tinder and want to find something more long lasting, whereas Tinder markets itself as something that's like more modern and fun and interesting. And I've seen ads for Tinder that say just because it doesn't last forever, it doesn't mean it's not meaningful, which is like a jab at people who might be using OkCupid. So there's this interesting cyclical nature of the portfolio, which in part is why it's worth so much because when one app bleeds users, another app can then collect them. And all of the money stays in this one empire, which is now worth billions of dollars.
MC: OK. I want to bring it back to Shar Dubey for a moment. Now she's the CEO of this wildly important company with all of these products. What is her management and leadership style like?
AP: Shar is very straightforward. She's very data-driven. She can even seem a bit stoic in matters of love, which is very different from the Match Group's previous CEO, Mandy Ginsburg, who was super effusive and emotive. And if you were single, she might try to set you up on a date. Shar is all about the numbers and this has served her very well in her career. And along the way, she's come to some really keen insights about what it is that helps people actually find love through the Internet. So for example, she was largely responsible for what is now Match.com's key feature, which is called the daily five, which is an algorithmic matching product that shows you five users that you're likely to like based on two different things. One is what you say your preferences are and the second is what your preferences seem to be based on your behavior on the site.
So a lot of people will say they only want to date someone who's six foot tall, but then they end up swiping around on profiles that are actually for shorter men. So this algorithmic idea is that you can capture both what people say they want and what they actually want, and maybe get them closer to someone who, in real life, works for them. Shar is also a really early advocate of video dating, which came in handy this year during the pandemic when I think lots of people have tried video dates for the very first time. But actually, back in the early 2000s, Shar already had this idea that there's this gap between what we see on someone's profile online and the person that we meet in the bar in real life.
And that distance can be really far, like sometimes people don't look anything like their photos, sometimes there's no chemistry, sometimes there's just nothing to talk about, you actually don't have anything in common. And I think this is why a lot of people feel discouraged with online dating, is that the people they are actually meeting up with are nothing like the person they want to go on a date with. And so as early as 2010, Shar had this idea that you could maybe build in a product that got people halfway there, which is to have them have a conversation video on their computer before they wasted their time driving out to a bar and getting gussied up and then having to pay for drinks. And of course, when Shar first pitched this idea it wasn't very popular. But fast forward to 2020 when she had to step into this incredibly challenging environment as chief executive, those insights and those instincts proved really useful in trying to push the dating industry past the pandemic and into the future.
LG: So this is a lot of data about people, we can't escape the algorithms that much at this point. So how much of our personal data are these apps actually getting and storing and how concerned about that should we be? And I'm asking this for a friend.
AP: I think that is a valid concern. The totality of that, I'm not sure to be honest. I think anything you're doing online is liable to be used against you. With Match Group products, I think there's maybe some reason to relax only in the sense that these apps are not making their revenue from ads. So your data is valuable to them, but it's not as valuable to them as it might be to say a social media company that is offering its products for free and is paying for things by selling your data to marketers. Actually, 97 percent of Match Group revenue comes from subscriptions, which is people paying to use specific features on websites or apps to get them closer to meeting someone they really like. So I found that pretty interesting and that by the way, is another Shar Dubey invention.
She is the woman responsible for Tinder Gold, which is the key product that has made Tinder a real cash cow. This is a suite of services. You can pay a monthly fee that get you all kinds of cool things. Like you get to see who swiped on you first, you could just swipe in different locations. It turns out people are really willing to pay money for that. If it gets them a little closer to true love or lust. And so that's been their way of making money. I mean, does that mean they're not collecting data on you? I don't think so, but it does mean that your data is maybe not as much of a lifeline to their bottom line as it is for a company like Facebook, which also has a dating app.
LG: Maybe WIRED should start a dating app, or maybe we should bring in someone like Shar to drive our subscriptions. She seems to be quite good at it.
MC: Arielle, I have one final question for you, which is that we are rapidly approaching our big post-pandemic summer. There will be tens of millions of singles in this country who are vaccinated and who are bursting at the seams to get back out there. What's going to happen? How is online dating going to change?
AP: That's the billion dollar question. Well, I think most people who wanted to talk about how dating was going to change during the pandemic found themselves really surprised by the fact that a year of social isolation didn't actually torpedo any of these apps, it buoyed them. The last year for the Match Group, as well as for other competitors like eHarmony or Bumble. This was an incredibly lucrative year for all of these apps and a year when engagement was way, way, way up, which I think a lot of people found surprising. And the takeaway there, I think, is that in a time when people are feeling lonely, in a time when people are feeling cut off, like these services provide a way to feel a little more connected and whether or not that connection is genuine or leads to anything, it's something.
And so I think it's important to note that we're coming off of a year when there's never been more attention or activity on dating apps. And that I think makes a strong case for why it's only going to go up in the summer, once people can start meeting in person again. I see no reason as to why people would stop using a dating app that they had gotten really into during the pandemic, just because they're able to be outside now. I mean, I think that's even more of a reason to continue. To your point, there's a lot that's changing about dating right now. I've heard from some younger users that video dating is something they plan to continue using well into the future because it saves you that awkward are you like what you were on paper moment. And so I think that's like a change that might be more permanent.
I think people have gotten a little more intentional about what they're actually looking for in the last year, so that's likely to spill over. And then because this has been such a hot year for dating apps, there are tons of new little startups and ideas about how to make dating better. And so I think those are going to really explode in the months to come. So we'll just have to find out. But Lauren, I think you're going to have to be our woman on the ground to let us know what the post pandemic summer really looks like for people who are using online dating. You have to promise that you're going to tell us in some months time, what it's like out there.
LG: I'm kind of afraid to tell you and Jason Kehe, because he does nudge me into another story. And also in my story, I did note that I would like to live slightly more offline these days. So I'll report back, but maybe not on the Gadget Lab just yet.
AP: Fair enough. Fair enough.
MC: I should mention that you can read both of these stories that we've discussed today, Arielle's profile of Shar Dubey and Lauren story about digital forgetting, they're both on the web right now at WIRED.com. And if you subscribe to the print edition of WIRED, both of those stories appear in our May issue, which should show up in your mailbox in about a week. All right. Well, let's take a break and when we come back, we'll do our recommendations.
[Break]
MC: All right. So before we get to our recommendations segment, we have a special announcement. This show that you're listening to right now is episode 499 of Gadget Lab, which means that next week we will be celebrating our 500th episode of this here little old podcast. We're going to take a break from the usual format of the show next week and we want to bring you a special episode. We will be visited by the ghosts of Christmases past, old friends, familiar voices. We'll do a little insider look at the history of the show, we'll talk a little bit about the history of WIRED. There might be some drinking. I'm not making any promises, but just don't miss it.
LG: This is so exciting.
MC: OK. Let's get to recommendations. Arielle, as our guest you get to go first. Tell us what you brought.
AP: OK. I recommend looking up your horoscope on astrologyzone.com. Now stay with me, stay with me. I don't care if you believe in astrology, I really don't. This isn't about buying into magical thinking, this is about giving yourself permission to think about the future, which for so long has felt scary and uncertain and now can be good again. Horoscopes can let you imagine your future in very specific ways even if you reject everything the astrologer tells you. And I think this is an important skill, especially now, as we look toward the summer and the post vaccination months ahead.
MC: So what sets Astrology Zone apart?
AP: I'm glad you asked. So I like astrologyzone.com because one, it has a hilarious name that makes it sound like you're making fun of yourself. And second it's written by an astrologer named Susan Miller, who is just totally bonkers and writes these deranged pages long horoscopes every month. So you just have to check once a month and you get like six pages of highly detailed, highly specific predictions for your sign. I find them really entertaining. Mine for April, correctly surmised that I had just wrapped up a bigger work project in March. And you'll let me know that my house of awards and achievements would be sparkling. So that's nice.
And it also told me that following the new moon this month, I would be presented with an exciting new assignment that I must keep secret. So that's what I'm looking forward to right now. The new moon is April 11th. I can't wait to get my new assignment and I'm grateful to Susan Miller for giving me that hope for the future.
LG: This is pretty amazing. I'm reading mine right now and it's a little bit ominous. It says April will be a good cheerful productive month until we get to the monster full moon in Scorpio on April 26th. What does it all mean, Arielle?
AP: Keep reading. Keep reading.
LG: All right. Yeah, after the show.
MC: OK.
AP: Mike, what's yours?
MC: My sign?
AP: No, we all know you're a Capricorn, you wear it on your sleeve. What's your recommendation?
MC: I would like to recommend a Substack newsletter written by E. Jean Carroll. So you may know who E. Jean Carroll is. If you do not, she is one of the longest running advice columnists in America. I think maybe the longest running. She had a column's called Ask E. Jean. It was in L magazine. It started in the '90s right up until 2019. It ran in L. You may remember that she accused Donald Trump of sexual assault, which got her ostracized from the publishing world for a little bit. She wrote a book. It was a very good book. She is not publishing an advice column in any major publication, she has gone to Substack.
So now you can subscribe and get E. Jean every week as a Substack newsletter. I am a subscriber. The first issue came out this week and it is fantastic. So that's my recommendation. You get all kinds of really great, snappy, fun writing. You get actual really good advice and you get those somewhat unhinged pleas for help that come in from the public that you can't help but laugh at as you read the lovely responses that she writes. So that is my recommendation.
AP: I cannot wait to read this. I saw this announced on Twitter recently and just did a silent cheer in my head. Subscribed.
MC: Subscribe. Lauren, what's your recommendation.
LG: My recommendation is a recycled one from an earlier Gadget Lab. You might recall that a few weeks ago, we had Kate Knibbs on to break down the wild world of NFTs. And at the end of that episode, Kate Knibbs recommended a book. I took her recommendation seriously. I've read it. It's a beautiful book. It's called Klara and the Sun, it's written by Nobel Laureate Kazuo Ishiguro. He's also written several other novels, I have not read any of his earlier work, but Klara and the Sun is a story of an AF, an artificial friend, as it's known, who befriends the girl whose family she joins basically in this world that Ishiguro writes about. These families all purchase these AFs. I'm envisioning them as some kind of humanoid robot for their children to have companions and also for some assistance and that kind of thing.
And this particular AF Klara is an incredibly astute and observational robot and actually starts to perceive and interpret and feel emotions, which is what makes it interesting. And it's just a really brilliant and beautiful book about the human experience and I guess the human-AI experience in our new world. So I recommend Klara and the Sun.
AP: Yes. And after you finished the book or before you can also read a fantastic interview that our colleague Will Knight did about the book with the author on WIRED.com. It's a really interesting conversation about artificial intelligence and literature and the future between two men who used to live in England.
LG: We'll link to that in the show notes.
MC: Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to reading this book, but it's about like 19th on my list. So I'm sure I'm going to be the last person in this circle to read the book as I am with most books.
LG: I also bought the Ram Dass book that you recommended, Mike, a few episodes prior to that, but I haven't cracked that open yet.
MC: The cover is amazing, isn't it?
LG: It's beautiful. In fact, I'll give it to you when I'm done with it, because it's such a beautiful book.
MC: Oh, I have it. I bought it on the Kindle, thanks.
LG: Of course you did.
MC: I appreciate it. All right. Well, that is our show for the week. Thank you again to Arielle Pardes for joining us.
AP: It's an honor just to be nominated.
LG: It was so fun to have you back.
MC: You can claim your award from the person in the bunny suit, standing outside your apartment right now.
AP: Thank you. Thank you.
MC: And thank you all for listening. If you have feedback, you can find all of this on Twitter. Just check the show notes. This show is produced by Boone Ashworth. Goodbye. And we'll be back with our special 500th episode.
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