VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.3] [Eva Kiss]

AndreDA said:

Also while Ian has a bunch of interesting girls to choose from (even if some could use more content), I feel like Lena's potential LI's are all awful. I mean, think about it, is there a single "boyfriend material" in her route other than Ian? Just a bunch of douchebag fuckboys, "lesbians" (but not really, only for our special Lena), a simp and a sugar daddy. How depressing.

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This is a common complaint and I totally agree her list of available guys sucks. I think by the end she'll be able to use her Main Character magic to whip Stan or Jeremy into respectable boyfriends, but neither have really shown why they'd deserve that kind of work being put into them in the first place.

I do like her lesbian routes though, and I don't think it's a stretch that Holly (pre-established bisexual who admires "hot" girls like Lena/Ivy) or Louise (just wants someone to give her attention and dom her) would go for her.

any ivy holly save?

The problem with lesbian routes is that they break my suspension of disbelief. Porn logic is fine in other games, but this one tries really hard to be more grounded so any deviation from that is very noticeable. So, they're all conventionally attracive and femme presenting, seem to come out of their shell specifically for also femme attractive Lena, and at the same time homosexual content is obviously not present in Ian's route.

Honestly the most realistic lesbian written by EvaKiss is that butch tranny from Good Girl Gone Bad, and that was a very porn character that got created because of some fan contest or something IIRC. I don't know, maybe she should've made Emma a lesbian or something.

But really, this only brings me back to the argument that characters in Ian's route are better written, while those in Lena's route are two-dimensional stereotypes. Baffling, because supposedly EvaKiss is a woman, yet she writes these slow burn complicated romances for Ian, while the scripts for Lena are basically "OMG, he's so hot, I bet he has a huge dick, I have to find out!" and "me and my BFF get drunk and start making out in the most male-gazey way imaginable". You'd think a woman would be able to write some more grounded and normal male romance options, and maybe an actual lesbian, not a porn version of one.

I mean, even the douchebag characters in Ian's route are realistically so. Cindy is a passive aggresive cheating bitch, but she seems like a human being and you can see where she's coming from. Alison and Cherry are similarly humanized. Only Minerva seems like a porn character. Well, and Jeremy of course. Actually the "immoral slutty friend" might be the only instance where the Lena equivalent (Ivy) is better written that Ian's (Jeremy).

NebulousShooter said:

If you play all possible routes open at the same time you see that Ian is only beating Robert and not even him always. Is beyond pathetic for a dual protagonist. When Lena is sending all her guys lewd pictures Ian gets the same thing she posts on her Only Fans/sends to the guy paying money, while everyone else gets unique poses, lol.

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Can you please tell me which game the middle girl is from ?

Blackreaper said:

Can you please tell me which game the middle girl is from ?

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Xupuzulla said:

Based Alison enjoyer,in my headcanon shes the one who ends with Ian but lets be real,thats no happening in the actual canon ending

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Thats her fault for bleaching her hair

varpep said:

My head canon for Lena and Ian is them in a committed relationship with full swinging allowed. A bit like the one John Boy and Elena have in another game

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Mine is for Ian to think that he's in a committed relationship, while Lena bangs Jeremy and Jack behind his back, and then play as Lena having to navigate all that without Ian finding out. Unfortunately, the game doesn't seem inclined to let me do that. The cheating is what gives it that bit of taboo spice, Ian being ok with it just kind of takes the fun out of it for me.

Kind of a weird aside, but it's like those crappy Sharknado movies that they make crappy on purpose so that they're "in on the joke", but it just comes off as more lame than if they'd actually put in the effort, tried to make a good movie, and accidentally made a crappy move in spite of that.

AndreDA said:

So... what do you guys consider to be the ultimate/canon playthrough? Ian and Lena 100% loyal to each other? Ian, Lena and Holly? Ian and Lena sleeping with max possible amount of characters? Setting up relationships and hookups between other characters as much as possible?

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Lena/Holly without a doubt, is the cutest and most sincere couple in the whole game, and apart from Ian, lena has no other decent LI.

With Ian it's the opposite, he has so many good LI that it's hard to choose, I can't decide between Ian/cherry or Ian/Emma.

CreativeCritic2 said:

I'm going to ask... is sending pictures of your dick and your sexual conquests to your friends normal for straight guys now?There's literally a scene where Jeremy sends Ian a picture of his dick and Alison with her face covered in cum.

I'm bi and I don't do that shit...

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Not for normal guys, but maybe it is for fuck bois/players. The ones that don't see woman as people, but extensions of their own sex lives.

At least that's my take.

fatpussy123 said:

Well I don't see any as canon, but in my mind the ultimate playthrough would be the pure trinity run. It results in the two protagonists and Holly, the unofficial third protagonist all being happy with each other. In other playthroughs where Holly doesn't date a protagonist, she either ends up living an unfulfilling lifestyle as Slut Holly or she is rejected plain Jane with no progress.

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Out of curiosity, can you reach the Holly Trinity by going Lena/Holly, then adding Ian in at some point? I've heard of the Ian/Holly + Lena, and done the Ian/Lena + Holly paths.

Birdnman993 said:

Lena/Holly without a doubt, is the cutest and most sincere couple in the whole game, and apart from Ian, lena has no other decent LI.

With Ian it's the opposite, he has so many good LI that it's hard to choose, I can't decide between Ian/cherry or Ian/Emma.

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I don't know if it's possible with the game branches, but an Ian/Lena/Holly/Emma would be a divine ending. One where they sidestepped all the potential rich guy manipulations, and showed off a good life not centred on money.

Maybe Perry gets Cherry? Or Wade and him commit to the e-sports? Wade and Cindy seemed doomed, it's just how bad the breakup goes (unless I missed something). Axel is scum. Stan and Louise wouldn't know a healthy relationship if it sat on their faces (so maybe they can have some weird fucked up relationship? Where Louise falls back to fucking Jeremy every so often?) Allison deserves better than Jeremy, but also doesn't seem to have the best way to approach getting into a healthy relationship. Ivy doesn't look like she has any internal growth on the horizon.

Edit: Maybe Wade and Allison? After he bounces out of his slow decline, and she sees through Jeremy being as deep as a puddle. Wade seems like there was a decent guy in there, that got lost along the way.

Mr_Ainz said:

Then next day is just Lena and Ian having sex

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That's just a bug, the game should skip the Lena/Ian on trinity route.

Unfortunately it doesn't really make it any better, because it just means the next event in the timeline is Lena leaving on the trip with Ivy.

Hungover00 said:

I don't know if it's possible with the game branches, but an Ian/Lena/Holly/Emma would be a divine ending. One where they sidestepped all the potential rich guy manipulations, and showed off a good life not centred on money.

Maybe Perry gets Cherry? Or Wade and him commit to the e-sports? Wade and Cindy seemed doomed, it's just how bad the breakup goes (unless I missed something). Axel is scum. Stan and Louise wouldn't know a healthy relationship if it sat on their faces (so maybe they can have some weird fucked up relationship? Where Louise falls back to fucking Jeremy every so often?) Allison deserves better than Jeremy, but also doesn't seem to have the best way to approach getting into a healthy relationship. Ivy doesn't look like she has any internal growth on the horizon.

Edit: Maybe Wade and Allison? After he bounces out of his slow decline, and she sees through Jeremy being as deep as a puddle. Wade seems like there was a decent guy in there, that got lost along the way.

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Well, come to think of it there is a general lack of good relationship options for supporting characters. Perry and Emma is the only pairing that makes sense currently. Big part of the problem is that almost the entire support cast is either massively dysfunctional or downright bad people. In Good Girl Gone Bad there were more supporting characters that started as decent, normal people, and you could keep them that way. Also, in GGGB you could not only corrupt good characters, but also fix bad ones like Jessica. Here 90% of the support cast is not ready for a healthy relationship, and you can only corrupt them (like Holly, Cindy, Minerva) while not being able to fix the bad ones like Ivy, Jeremy or Axel. In GGGB you could engineer a pretty good ending where a bunch of characters end up healthy and happy. So far, I don't see that possibility for this game. I think it was a mistake to make every supporting male character either a loser or a fuckboy. There is no one to pair up the girls with now. Alison is a perfect example, her love path shows that she can be a relationship material with the right guy, but if Ian doesn't go for her then she just ends up as Jeremy's cumrag.

AndreDA said:

Well, come to think of it there is a general lack of good relationship options for supporting characters. Perry and Emma is the only pairing that makes sense currently. Big part of the problem is that almost the entire support cast is either massively dysfunctional or downright bad people. In Good Girl Gone Bad there were more supporting characters that started as decent, normal people, and you could keep them that way. Also, in GGGB you could not only corrupt good characters, but also fix bad ones like Jessica. Here 90% of the support cast is not ready for a healthy relationship, and you can only corrupt them (like Holly, Cindy, Minerva) while not being able to fix the bad ones like Ivy, Jeremy or Axel. In GGGB you could engineer a pretty good ending where a bunch of characters end up healthy and happy. So far, I don't see that possibility for this game. I think it was a mistake to make every supporting male character either a loser or a fuckboy. There is no one to pair up the girls with now. Alison is a perfect example, her love path shows that she can be a relationship material with the right guy, but if Ian doesn't go for her then she just ends up as Jeremy's cumrag.

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Alison and Ian is a solid B+ relationship (to me). A good amount of compatibility, some natural passion, no major conflicts or worldview disparities (unless you choose/make them). But the spark that Ian and Lena have is missing. And as you point out, non-asshole Ian is the only decent male option in the game. Perry could be, for someone with the right puzzle piece match, and Wade might be again, if he rebuilds himself. Everyone else is deeply flawed in ways that make them bad people, or at least bad people to date.

I do wonder if it's a failing on the writers part, for not being able to create compelling male love interests, or if the bar is so low for what makes an acceptable male romance option that they think these are good enough. Because it doesn't really feel like it's just an issue with this game or EK, but across media types. Romance, from what I understand, is broad enough to have decent and compelling options as well as the fucked up dysfunctional male love interests, but elsewhere it seems like 90% crap vs. 10% a healthy and interesting person you would recommend to a friend to date.

Also, Jeremy is just the worse, but then Axel exists, so not the absolute worst.

So, for the record. I think all of chapter 1 has been rewritten. On top of the changes to Ian's half of the story I've already mentioned in a previous post.

Lena no longer has a dialogue option when speaking with her mother on the phone.
Lena's uncle has passed away months prior, and Lena was completely unaware, per the conversation with her mother.
Additionally the conversation between Lena and her mom makes little mention of either mom or dad's health, and no Spike.
Axel now comes into the restaurant, causing Lena to leave early.
If Ian meets with Alison for lunch, we now see that date from Lena's perspective.
If you tell Ed that you need to leave early for a photoshoot, there is no longer a dialogue option when Lena is changing in the storage closet.
Dialogue between Lena and Danny (the photographer) has been extended.
Robert is more caring towards Lena and doesn't come across as nearly as much of a loser middle manager. Easier to mistake thinking a date with him is a good idea.


Ian and Lena don't learn each other's names at all during chapter 1.
Robert's date has been removed and pushed into chapter 2.

Which means a lot of chapter 2 will also have likely been rewritten.

I didn't do a new playthrough for 13.1, so some of this might have happened last update. Some changes I know were added previously, but they're in a new order now too. For example the confrontation between Robert and Axel, that results in Robert's black eye for Ian's half of the chapter. But, for any of you wondering what Eva spends her time on. Well, here it is. Overall I actually appreciate a lot of these changes.

Hungover00 said:

Alison and Ian is a solid B+ relationship (to me). A good amount of compatibility, some natural passion, no major conflicts or worldview disparities (unless you choose/make them). But the spark that Ian and Lena have is missing. And as you point out, non-asshole Ian is the only decent male option in the game. Perry could be, for someone with the right puzzle piece match, and Wade might be again, if he rebuilds himself. Everyone else is deeply flawed in ways that make them bad people, or at least bad people to date.

I do wonder if it's a failing on the writers part, for not being able to create compelling male love interests, or if the bar is so low for what makes an acceptable male romance option that they think these are good enough. Because it doesn't really feel like it's just an issue with this game or EK, but across media types. Romance, from what I understand, is broad enough to have decent and compelling options as well as the fucked up dysfunctional male love interests, but elsewhere it seems like 90% crap vs. 10% a healthy and interesting person you would recommend to a friend to date.

Also, Jeremy is just the worse, but then Axel exists, so not the absolute worst.

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It shouldn't be hard to write good male romance options, it was a choice to make all three of Perry, Wade and Stan into losers, and I don't even know what exactly Robert is supposed to be. Honestly if I was a woman I'd wish Wen was a potential love interest, strong, playful and wise.

And the fact that "the spark that Ian and Lena have" is missing from other romance options is kinda a choice, or a failure in writing, no? Alison starts as a frustrated, overworked and unfulfilled woman, both her and Ian are ambitious and feel they are capable of better things. They're also old friends. That's better set-up for a beggining of a relationship than Ian meeting a hot waitress. Holly could've been the nerdy choice, Alison the normie choice, and Cindy the naughty choice. But a choice was made to make Lena the main LI and the likes of Alison and Cindy only get scraps from the writers table.
Cindy actually starts great, the looong buildup to anything happening between her and Ian, the slow motion car crash that is her relationship with Wade. But I feel like her story has run out of steam.

I mentioned earlier that it reminds me of Mass Effect, where the writers heavily favor Liara. I chose Jack as my LI and got maybe 20% of the content that Liara romancers got. Life is pain.

The reality is very few writers are interested at all in writing good male companions and romance options because
they believe their male audience will reject them. Which, as a woman, pisses me the fuck off. The idea of making
a decent, confident and potent male is viewed as problematic in some circles and an in others somehow bizarrely
too much competition for the weaker male reader that wants to possess every female in the story or keep other
male characters from their favorite female character. Meanwhile, anyone playing a female MC or Co MC has to
become a fucking lesbian to get any kind of pay off. Looking at men is apparently gay. Two women fucking is okay.
It's still fucking gay. And a massive double standard. Personally I want Lena (I modded my copy so I'm the FMC,
and not Lena) anyway, I want Axel back. Or a path that leads to reconciliation. Out of every male in this story
he is literally the most together and interesting.

But yeah. This failure of writing is why every female character from Lara Croft to Aloy aren't allowed to have
any actual depth or male romances. They might as well be genderless nuns because Lord forbid they should
like or desire a strong male romance. Instead we get Perry's and Wade's and insecure male MCs too worried
about making a first move. I was dating Robert before the male MC even considered asking me out.
How the fuck does that happen?

AndreDA said:

Ian's route are better written, while those in Lena's route are two-dimensional stereotypes. Baffling, because supposedly EvaKiss is a woman

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I think Ian's LI are better and feel like real people because Eva is a woman and knows how women work. While when writing about men (Lena's LIs) she is relying on stereotypes to create characters rather than cook them herself.

Silken the Rocket Girl said:

The reality is very few writers are interested at all in writing good male companions and romance options because
they believe their male audience will reject them.

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It's a shame because EK has written at least one good male LI before in GGGB (Dave). When this game was released I was expecting more of that but it's a shame all we get are stereotypes with faces and names slapped on them.